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This is a general phenomenon the the world of fair trade. I deal with this in the housing market all the time. I recently was asked to appraise a house which was to be constructed (ie: not built yet) buy builder "A". Now we do this all the time. after all there is usually the same factors in building a house, timber, finishing quality, size, site size etc... so how come builder "A" can charge 15-20%% more than builder "B" for the same house? Both of these builders are reputable in the city and well known for their quality and care taken with the build. Is builder "A"'s house better that the other? What makes someone buy builder "A"'s house over the other? Surely there are houses built to the same quality with all the same features as builder "A"'s, but for some reason the potential customer just has to have the house built by builder "A". So know builder "A" thinks, "hey, my houses are in demand, so I am going to raise my prices and get myself a bigger turkey for Christmas this year. Thanks folks for buying my goods over the next best thing."

As an appraiser, I really hate it when this happens to good people. Now don't get me wrong, Jeff and other big name builders are free to charge what they want, and people are free to pay what they like, but does it really mean that we are getting something exponentially better because it is made by builder "A" instead of builder "B"? That's just my pickle. I have seen some very nice looking guitars right here on this forum buy some very great builders who don't have a big name yet. I'm sure they could be directly compared to a higher priced unit in many if not all of the pertinent criteria, sound, design, playability, looks, "perfection" if there is such a thing. Hope that those folks get there some time soon.

Just my 2 cents worth.Rod True38695.7938773148

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Most players don't really know what goes into making a guitar--they just know what they like at that moment, and, more importantly, in what they perceive that they can put their confidence. Confidence is really what they're putting their money on; confidence in a builder's reputation, confidence that others have been satisfied by that builder's instruments, confidence that others will be impressed by his new purchase, and confidence that, if something goes wrong, that builder will still be around tomorrow to fix it. Sure, there are lesser-known makers offering instruments of equal (or better) quality, but the guys who command the big bucks, for the most part, have earned their place, and deserve every penny. After all, many on this forum know how much time those luthiers spent either losing money or working for a couple of bucks an hour!

By the way, if you're thinking, "Man, my prices are way too low," and are eager to add a zero to your tag, consider this: Once you raise your asking prices, you'll never be able to lower them again without having a "bargin bin" sign stuck to your reputation for a very long time to come. Be absolutely sure people will happily pay the bigger tab!

[QUOTE=CarltonM]
By the way, if you're thinking, "Man, my prices are way too low," and are eager to add a zero to your tag, consider this: Once you raise your asking prices, you'll never be able to lower them again without having a "bargin bin" sign stuck to your reputation for a very long time to come. Be absolutely sure people will happily pay the bigger tab![/QUOTE]

Well said Carlton

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] Pricing on guitars pretty much follows what you didn't pay attention to in
Econ 101 . The thing that makes sense of it is that, as with other markets
in art objects, the customers are buying two things: an object and a name.
At the low end the name adds nothing to the price. At the high end, the
name is most of it.[/QUOTE]

Like your guitars Howard, your insight into what drives a market is spot on.

I've got both a Stradivarius and a Van Gogh, unfortunately Stradivarius was a lousy painter and Van Gogh couldn't build violins!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=CarltonM]By the way, if you're thinking, "Man, my prices are way too low," and are eager to add a zero to your tag, consider this: Once you raise your asking prices, you'll never be able to lower them again without having a "bargin bin" sign stuck to your reputation for a very long time to come. Be absolutely sure people will happily pay the bigger tab![/QUOTE]


I respectfully disagree.

People with high end prices constantly battle with 1) How to maximize their revenue... it is hard to watch good, paying customers go somewhere else, and 2) How do you introduce people to your brand and bring them along.

There are TONS of elite brands that have entry level products. Cars are an obvious example. Every "prestige" brand has one... the Mercedes C class, The Porsche Boxter, BMW has several... etc.   Guitar makers are no different. If you look around several builders have entry level instruments.

I think this is smart. It helps the market become familiar with your work and brand at a more entry price and hopefully in time you can get players to become a repeat customers and buy some of your higher end instruments.

Bill Moll and Tom Ribbecke come to mind as two who offer this, but I have seen lots of high end makers with products like this.


Brock Poling38697.4623032407

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I think you miss Carleton's point, Brock. You can have models at different
prices. But in the art market (like handmande guitars) it is a disaster to ever
lower the price for a given model. A big manufacturer can have sales. When
an individual does this, it will piss off previous buyers and create the
impression that either the work has gone downhill; or he is desperate; or he
was overcharging before; or that the guitars (or other object) are a bad
investment; or some or all of the above.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

ok... you are right. I did miss it. I agree. You can't ever come down on price on a given model.

For some reason I was thinking the poing was once you raise prices on ALL models that you can't ever go back to low(er) priced instruments.

I see what the point was now.   

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Yep, thanks Howard.

Brock, there are also lots of high dollar builders who added their lower price lines after they were successful.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

A question and then an observation:

Question: How did Healdsburg stack up to ASIA for those who attended both? Was one event larger than the other with more vendors, exhibitors, workshops, etc.?

Observation: I think I will price my next build at $20k. Nothing to loose as I have never actually sold one of my guitars. Might be able to present my flaws as character and based on my current build rate I can add that I have a 5 year backlog for anyone that wants an "Altieri". That ought to create some real interest.

Of course I am just joking around although I think many of you have a great sense of marketing. Very interesting post.

   Mr Cumpiano, on his internet site, made a very interesting point. He says that if you want to buy a violin by a reputable maker expect to pay around 15K. However, a guitar made buy an equaly respected builder will fetch, on average, about 3-5K. All this, despite the fact that a violin is much simpler to make and the materials are less expensive.
   The lesson here, I think, is to learn to make violins...
   Seriously, we should all get together; 'GUITAR BUILDERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!'... Not one guitar leaves my shop under 10K! Now, who's with me!
   Regards from your brother in arms.
Alain Desforges

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Interesting point Alain however, after seeing several "fiddle" builders and dealers at the IBMA show in Nashville with zero sales ... I think I will stick with geetars ;)

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I have a friend, George Orthey, who makes autoharps. One of very few hand builders, but early in his career he got the "upper shelf" market for by competing with production company, Oscar Schmidt.(now overseas I believe)

His visibility came from the Carter family using his instrument on stage, on TV weekly. He's still making a decent living many many years into it. Not sure what happens when the status Quo changes in the Carter family though...

Having a market, even an obscure one, can be successful

I don't know how many of you look in at the APM acoustic guitar forum;
there is a discussion there about our discussion in this thread: http://
www.acousticplayermagazine.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=502 3

I guess there's no expecting to have privacy (or to have a conversation not
be misunderstood) on the net.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.